[Immunity]

Let me start off by saying - and not for an ego boost mind you, just trying to add a bit of credibility to the following post - that I'm currently ranked #13 on the Helicopter leaderboards. No, this doesn't mean that I'm the best (a buddy of mine ranked in the mid thousands flys just as good if not a bit better), however it does to some extent show that I'm not merely talking out of my ass on the following subject (with 800ish hours logged, a 6ish or 7ish fragrate and 80%ish of kills coming from a helo).

That said , let me begin...

In POE's current release state (1.0), the Eurotiger is far superior to its HIND counterpart in sheer combat effectiveness, whether we are talking Air to Air or Air to Ground.

Air to Ground Advantages -

1. TARGET IDENTIFICATION AND PRIORITIZATION - This is the single most important advantage the Eurotiger has over its counterpart. The pilot is able to ID and prioritize vehicular targets safely above tank turret range via usage of the Hot3 target boxes. A box not only shows the location of a target, but also its vector and potential target types (fast targets = cars, slow/medium targets = tanks/apc's/aa). Putting this weapon system at the disposal of the pilot instead of the gunner allows for the pilot to make decisions instantly and on the fly (no pun intended) without having to coordinate with his gunner. The HIND is of course at a disadvantage here, as even when on Teamspeak with said gunner, a communication lag exists, and mere directions such as "to the left a little, to our 7 oclock " etc. are not nearly as efficient both time and precision wise as when the pilot has the view right on his screen. While the HIND pilot is coordinating with his gunner, the Eurotiger pilot already knows the targets exact location and is moving in for the attack (being able to choose the angle of attack that much more precisely via that target box).

2. SMALLER SILHOUETTE - Again, another distinct advantage that works sharply in the Eurotiger's favor and contributes greatly to the HIND's demise. The Eurotiger is a much sleeker, smaller target than the HIND. Personally, I see the HIND as a massive bubble / cardboard box , while the Tiger is kind of like, well, a ruler. No-one here can say that from a 150-200m distance its easier to land a hit on a Tiger than a HIND, as it's simply not true. The HIND is double, if not triple the mere surface area of its counterpart.

3. EXCELLENT VERTICAL CLIMB - Again, this works greatly in the Tiger's advantage and all but cripples the HIND. While it may have a mere third of the missle payload the HIND carries, the crisp vertical response given to the Eurotiger ensures dead on precision with the unguided rockets, no ammo needs to be wasted whatsoever. You can descend sharply and pull out in time to avoid hitting the mountain 10 feet infront of you. This is something the HIND cannot come close to.

4. SMALLER SILHOUETTE + EXCELLENT VERTICAL CLIMB = UNMATCHED MANUVERABILITY - Whether it be weaving in and out of fire sporadically or climbing above turret range after an attack run the Eurotiger, in the hands of a skilled pilot, is simply unmatched (and cannot be matched for that matter) via its HIND counterpart.

Air to Air Advantages -

1. SMALLER SILHOUETTE - See item #2 above. In an air to air engagement against the HIND, the Tiger proves to be a much smaller, and consequently much more difficult target to hit.

2. EXCELLENT VERTICAL CLIMB - See item #3 above. When combined with a smaller silhouette, this gives the Tiger an almost unbeatable air combat advantage. You can't hit something you are unable to get a decent AOA on.

Disproving Balance Myths -

1. The HINDs greater armor advantage makes up for its hulking silhouette and ****poor vertical climb -

While it may have more armor, the fact that it has to descend within turret tank range to identify and engage ground targets, coupled with its appalling bad vertical climb rate proves to be fatal more often than not.

2. The HINDs 64 unguided rockets put the Eurotiger's mere 22 to shame -

Wrong again. First off, the HIND rarely lives to fire all 64 of those rockets. Big target + ****ty climb rate + no target ID boxes to show where tanks/vehicles are positioned ahead of time = 1 flaming wreck of a helo.
Secondly, the HIND pilot is lacking the punch of the Hot3 missles, which ensure it only takes a mere 2-3 more to finish a tank or any other vehicle. I'd rather have 22 unguided and 4 Hot3's than even 128 of those dumbfires anyday.

3. The HIND can carry troops - the Eurotiger can't -

True. But why would you carry troops in a combat helo when there are unused transports sitting on the pads at almost all times (nobody ever uses the Ukranian transport helo's but thats a topic for another post)? That, combined with the fact that troops quite often get killed INSIDE during AA fire / tankshells / whathaveyou, while the pilot retains full health, completly nullifies this said "advantage". When something's counterpart is pure combat, it only makes sense to make it pure combat as well in order to ensure any competition. The HIND is like mounting a gun on a taxicab and sending it out against a Sherman. It's troop transport capability, while technically accurate, is all but useless and serves to hinder it more than help.

4. The HIND pilot gets a massive cannon - the Eurotiger doesn't -

Again, true. But, that cannon only confers a distinct advantage when the engagement is initiated by the HIND and not the Tiger. If the HIND sees the Tiger first (which is not often mind you), the cannon does give the HIND long range engagement capability. However, even during a retreat, a Eurotiger pilot can employ relatively simple tactics to all but negate entirely the accuracy of that cannon. Also, why bother using the poor splash damage of said cannon on tanks or infantry when you have 64 unguided rockets (most of which you will most likely not live to use) anyway?


Well, that's part one of my thoughts after spending a few days away from BF2/SF and piloting the PoE helo's. Was a hell of a long post. Going to take a break and post part 2 a bit later complete with Tips and Tricks. Feel free to flame or post questions

By the way, I'm not one to stand idley by my words - if you think I'm full of sh*t on one or more points, I'd be glad to show you ingame just how valid these observations really are. Name the time and place

[airgringo]

If you try to fly the Hind the same way you fly the Tiger, you will die often and spectacularly.

If the Tiger's climb rate makes it "unbeatable" in air to air combat, I'm guessing that you're probably trying to use the Hind the same way you'd use the Tiger, or the BF2 helos, in air combat.

[aTam]

"It flys like a bus"

I've heard that a few times.

[Yonsen]

i find them pretty equal when fighting eachother,

the tiger's lack of many rockets is made up for the agility+HOT-3's.

if you get in close and know where to aim, the HOT-3 is a 1-hit kill.

(the Hind pilot can just as easily turn out of the way and get behind you and empty dozens of rockets within seconds)
---

[Illicitfilms]

I've never had trouble killing the eurotiger with the hind, or the other way around, its rock paper scissors game play, hind has its weakness's and eurotiger has its weakness's, but both are more than capable of wreaking havoc against helis and ground targets.

My preference, the hind. Why? Cause it is fast, packs more of a punch, and can really lay down fire onto a target/flag. thats just my preference tho and if you can use that main cannon properly, it rips through armor/apcs like butter.
Plus the hind flies more like a jet, so you need to think more like a jet pilot, its quite maneuverable when flown that way

This post has been edited by Illicitfilms: 30 August 2006 - 04:41 PM

[Stizzle]

At first i thought it was unbalanced, then i played it again and thought it wasn't so bad. Then i played it even more and thought this is ridiculous i'm just going to stick in the Frogfoot and forget about ever going on a map with the HIND/Tiger there and no Su-25 Frogfoot.

What i think

**** it nobody listens anyway...

this mod is going down the route USI did

[Arikara]

From a distance, the Hind will tear the Eurotiger a part in seconds. I took out about a dozen Eurotigers last night with the cannon alone. Just keep your distance, wait for them to engage a ground target and snipe them with the cannon. 5-7 shots = dead Eurotiger.

[[tR]Greasy_Mullet]

Stizzle, on Aug 30 2006, 05:45 PM, said:

At first i thought it was unbalanced, then i played it again and thought it wasn't so bad. Then i played it even more and thought this is ridiculous i'm just going to stick in the Frogfoot and forget about ever going on a map with the HIND/Tiger there and no Su-25 Frogfoot.

What i think

**** it nobody listens anyway...

this mod is going down the route USI did

[RedAero]

Quote

Greasy_Mullet' date='Aug 30 2006, 11:57 PM' post='124112']

[DrunkenPirate]

Quote

Greasy_Mullet' date='Aug 30 2006, 10:57 PM' post='124112']

[Condition_Red]

Quote

Greasy_Mullet' date='Aug 30 2006, 05:57 PM' post='124112']

[Forrest Gump]

Huh?

This post has been edited by Forrest Gump: 30 August 2006 - 05:22 PM

[Evil.Iguana]

airgringo, on Aug 30 2006, 05:07 PM, said:

If you try to fly the Hind the same way you fly the Tiger, you will die often and spectacularly.

If the Tiger's climb rate makes it "unbeatable" in air to air combat, I'm guessing that you're probably trying to use the Hind the same way you'd use the Tiger, or the BF2 helos, in air combat.

Ok, then tell us all how that works. The OP has made a very convincing argument with his itemized points based on firsthand experience. If you are going to dismiss his opinion how about doing it by presenting a strong counter argument rather than typical tester hubris.

To be honest, I find the arrogance of a number of you testers to be rather annoying. When a guy comes in with a polite and well thought out criticism, dismissing him is probably a bad idea. Just because you tested it, and the testers were satisfied with it, does not automatically make it perfect.

In the end not everyone is going to agree on balance issues, and there is nothing wrong with that. You are by all means entitled to the opinion that people need more time to relearn their playstyles in order to make an assessment. And you should say that, but you should present it as your opinion, not as god ordained.

[Living Ghost]

The Mullet MASTER, on Aug 30 2006, 05:57 PM, said:

[Special_K]

couldn't agree more with the OP

Stizzle, on Aug 30 2006, 10:45 PM, said:

...just going to stick in the Frogfoot and forget about ever going on a map with the HIND/Tiger there and no Su-25 Frogfoot...

QFT

[airgringo]

I'm not trying to be arrogant, sorry if it came off that way. I think he's done an excellent job of listing the strengths of the Tiger and how they stack up against the same aspect of the Hind, but the two helos are just too different to be compared directly on a point by point basis. Each has it's own obvious strengths and weaknesses, and consequently each has situations that put it at an advantage or a disadvantage. The fact that he's good with the BF2 choppers says a lot about how he's likely flying the Hind, and the "classic" helo vs. helo combat tactic of climbing straight up while turning with your rudder to get a better shot at the other helos just.doesn't.work.in.the.Hind. I'm fairly comfortable making this assumption because I see it happening all the time in public servers, and it's a situation that gives the Tiger all the advantages because it's got a way better climb rate. That's how helo combat is done in BF2, BFV, POE1, hell, even DC. But it will pretty much have a preordained conclusion if you get into that situation with POE2 helos.

The tactic I've found best for the Hind are to force them into a chase. If you're blasting along full speed and you run into a Tiger, well, keep going where you where headed and keep your speed up, forcing the Tiger to do something other than climb straight up and shoot at you from above. If the Tiger's going to keep up, it will have to give chase right away, it doesn't have a speed advantage. Once you've got a bit of distance (don't really need to see, just go by time - a few seconds is lots) turn it around (bank! always bank. never try to turn it with the rudder only at speed) and you'll probably be confronted by a Tiger coming at you at more or less your altitude. Unleash with the cannon if it's not quite up with you, hit it with the rockets if it's close enough to be worthwhile. The Tiger pilot will probably try to climb - that's the best tactic for that helo, and it's the natural one for most of the people playing - but don't follow. Get your speed back up, don't fly in a perfectly straight line (rockets will be coming your way) and repeat the maneuver. As long as you don't get into a vertical climbing fight with a Tiger, you won't be giving up your biggest advantage, which is your massive ammo capacity.

Sometimes you'll get unlucky, and the Tiger will get a good bead on you with rockets. Sometimes you'll get blasted to kingdom come with a Hot-3 as you make the turn. Sometimes the Tiger will have a gunner, and then you'd best not use this tactic. But most of the time you'll get two or three really good chances to blast a half dozen rockets into the Tiger, or at the very least pepper it with 20mm fire. If you're really lucky he'll run out of ammo in the middle of the fight, something that's quite unlikely to happen to you.

The two helicopters are not equal. But they are both equally capable. They can't do the same things the same way, but you sure can get results.

[=XTC=HenryRollins]

he has some good points the Tiger is a smaller target and there are advantages to having pilot controlled HOTs. But I appreciate using my gunner as my main source of kill power. It gives the gunner much more to do then just fly around and wait to miss with the a-a or get close enough to engage with the cannon.

[airgringo]

I think the Hind pilot could benefit from target ID boxes.. Not sure whether gun or rocket mode would be more suited to it, but I agree that it's certainly an adavantage for the Tiger in tank hunting.

[Special_K]

airgringo, on Aug 31 2006, 12:40 AM, said:

I think the Hind pilot could benefit from target ID boxes.. Not sure whether gun or rocket mode would be more suited to it, but I agree that it's certainly an adavantage for the Tiger in tank hunting.

agreed

http://www.pointofex...d...st&p=121202

[GRU.51]

airgringo, on Aug 30 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

I think the Hind pilot could benefit from target ID boxes.. Not sure whether gun or rocket mode would be more suited to it, but I agree that it's certainly an adavantage for the Tiger in tank hunting.

And why dosen't the HIND have target ID boxes in the first place? Thats just a major disadvantage having to skim the ground just to find out if the vehile your targeting is friendly or not just to get shot by a tank or RPG when you go low, then any "extra armor" it may have is rendered complety useless.

airgringo, on Aug 30 2006, 04:40 PM, said:

I think the Hind pilot could benefit from target ID boxes.. Not sure whether gun or rocket mode would be more suited to it, but I agree that it's certainly an adavantage for the Tiger in tank hunting.

And why dosen't the HIND have target ID boxes in the first place? Thats just a major disadvantage having to skim the ground just to find out if the vehicle your targeting is friendly or not just to get shot by a tank or RPG when you go low, then any "extra armor" it may have is rendered completly useless.