[Perfect]

There must be a parameter missing in your equation?single shot with G36 just feels much more accurate on long range shooting than on the VEPR. When i fire I also see that the spread is greater on the VEPR?

You have a point that G36 is not as good as the VEPR, first day I played POE2 I noticed it and complained in the POE forum. What I didn't like was that G36 is a weaker weapon with larger recoil. Usually you balance weapons so that the weaker weapon get less recoil?especially since the G36 is one (if not the best) of the best weapons in the world that is best fittet to shoot auto fire with.
And maybe most fights are a win for Ukrain, as an example the Ukrain always had a win on Fallen in the past, but lately it has been random for me.
(Or just keep it as it is, cause I think each army is balanced in total, even if Ukrain have a stronger assult. This due to German medic and spec.ops are better than the Ukrain counterparts (Don't know how it is with sniper, engineer and support classes, due to I don't play them...).

How can you say that G36 have less size of view compared to Ukrain medic rifle with iron sight? I feel that the scop is less on iron sight, but most important is that the iron sight is blocking "half" the view, this is especially a problem when the opponent prone dive and the rifle itself is blocking the view?this don't happens with the scope rifles which all German classes have?(If a remember correct only assult, sniper and engineer class have scope in Ukrain army).

Summary: Only possible changes are to give G36 less recoil or make the VEPR as weak as the G36, just to match the assult rifles better.
But then the G36 medic rifle should be left alone since it's a good match to the Ukrain medic. It's not good to make assult class too good, who will then play spec.ops or even worse?will there be any medics or support guys on the battlefield?

[Jonathan_Archer_nx01]

Perfect, on Oct 26 2006, 08:59 AM, said:

There must be a parameter missing in your equation?single shot with G36 just feels much more accurate on long range shooting than on the VEPR. When i fire I also see that the spread is greater on the VEPR?

You have a point that G36 is not as good as the VEPR, first day I played POE2 I noticed it and complained in the POE forum. What I didn't like was that G36 is a weaker weapon with larger recoil. Usually you balance weapons so that the weaker weapon get less recoil?especially since the G36 is one (if not the best) of the best weapons in the world that is best fittet to shoot auto fire with.
And maybe most fights are a win for Ukrain, as an example the Ukrain always had a win on Fallen in the past, but lately it has been random for me.
(Or just keep it as it is, cause I think each army is balanced in total, even if Ukrain have a stronger assult. This due to German medic and spec.ops are better than the Ukrain counterparts (Don't know how it is with sniper, engineer and support classes, due to I don't play them...).

How can you say that G36 have less size of view compared to Ukrain medic rifle with iron sight? I feel that the scop is less on iron sight, but most important is that the iron sight is blocking "half" the view, this is especially a problem when the opponent prone dive and the rifle itself is blocking the view?this don't happens with the scope rifles which all German classes have?(If a remember correct only assult, sniper and engineer class have scope in Ukrain army).

Summary: Only possible changes are to give G36 less recoil or make the VEPR as weak as the G36, just to match the assult rifles better.
But then the G36 medic rifle should be left alone since it's a good match to the Ukrain medic. It's not good to make assult class too good, who will then play spec.ops or even worse?will there be any medics or support guys on the battlefield?

I've got used to high recoil, thats why I use headshot method at medium range. But at close combat, G36 has too high add and max deviation, that means you don't stand a chance in non-zoomed mode against ak-74, Asvahl, VEPR etc.
If recoil of goes down then add/max deviaton should go down as well.
My suggestions:
G36 max recoil - from 1.3 to 0.8
G36 add deviation from 0.3 to 0.14
G36 max deviation from 2.5 to 1.4

But this might not be the final solution. First it needs to be tested.

And what about sniper rifles.
I can tell you that MGS90 is no match to SVD Dragunov.
If you look at the Dragunov, it has 40 rounds, same as MGS90
But MGS90 has damage only 45 while SVD 90
MGS90
Number of hits to kill to non-armored/armored target is 3/4 same as VEPR!!? Sniper rifles should be stronger than assault rifles, shouldn't they?
But since Snipers dont carry armor, an ukrainian assault soldier can kill german sniper by 3 hits while german snipe have to hit him 4 times!!!
My suggestions:
to increase the MGS90 damage to 55 so the shot to kill non-armored/armored target wil be 2/3.
And It would be fine to add one more mag.

[Krazny]

Jonathan_Archer_nx01, on Oct 26 2006, 03:21 AM, said:

I've got used to high recoil, thats why I use headshot method at medium range. But at close combat, G36 has too high add and max deviation, that means you don't stand a chance in non-zoomed mode against ak-74, Asvahl, VEPR etc.
If recoil of goes down then add/max deviaton should go down as well.
My suggestions:
G36 max recoil - from 1.3 to 0.8
G36 add deviation from 0.3 to 0.14
G36 max deviation from 2.5 to 1.4

First off,

When in fully automatic fire, there is no assualt rifle in the world that can match the AK-74 family for controlability. (IE lack of recoil and muzzlerise.) This is due to the relativly low recoil impulse of the 5.45x39 round, and the massive muzzle brake that is on the end of the barrel.
This is also the case in semi-automatic fire, but you don't notcie it as much cause you are too busy putting the sights back on the target and pulling the trigger again.

As for accuracy,

The current NATO spec round, the SS109 62 grain 5.56x45 bullet, is not known for its accuracy. This is due the the mild steel 'penetrator' core. It isn't always perfectly in the center, which shifts the sectional density and center of mass just enough to cause erratic flight. The 5.45x39 round also has this problem, but its not as noticeable, mostly due to the **** poor level of accuracy everyone associates with the AK. While in theory, the G36 is more accurate on semi, in reality both weapons usually are restricted in their accuracy by the troopers that carry them.

This post has been edited by Krazny: 26 October 2006 - 08:08 AM

[BZBuzz]

Pfff complete waist of time.... You see K, Mr Archer here present show you clearly by is argumentations
that its NOT a thing between a game reaction when in Lan compared to Internet. That was a friging
excuse ''again'' to push in favour of ONE's side... Mr Archer here , sorry If I'm getting personal
but in fact I'm much more pleading against ALL these forum rats who try to influence a game
for there favourite side, class, weapons, vehicle... Mr Archer make complete abstraction
of balance in games voluntarily, making perfect use of rhetoric in advocating for its own
personal needs. I'm sorry but this is not helping AT ALL, PoE's dev in order to create a better
game. The only effects it have is wasting time of those, and adding possibilities to break the game
near perfect balance.

As it is, I have NO preference regarding sides and weapons , everything IS balance when considering
the totality of weapons, and vehicles available, AND not wanting to understand the fact that PoE
WAS NOT balanced in the ''mirror way'' as it as been repeated so often on this forum is just
meaning that you are just NOT ''capable'' of playing this mod or at least to post in a helping way.

This post has been edited by BZBuzz: 26 October 2006 - 09:19 AM

[Perfect]

Jonathan_Archer_nx01, on Oct 26 2006, 11:21 AM, said:

Number of hits to kill to non-armored/armored target is 3/4 same as VEPR!!? Sniper rifles should be stronger than assault rifles, shouldn't they?
But since Snipers dont carry armor, an ukrainian assault soldier can kill german sniper by 3 hits while german snipe have to hit him 4 times!!!
My suggestions:
to increase the MGS90 damage to 55 so the shot to kill non-armored/armored target wil be 2/3.
And It would be fine to add one more mag.

I was a sniper in the army and I don't think you understand how a sniper should act.
You say snipers don't have armour, but assults have?what you miss to say is that snipers have camouflage. Assults charge the enemy, therefore they need armour. The sniper should do the opposite, that's why they have camoulfage instead of armour.

Snipers are not to underpowered in POE2, I really think they shoot better in close combat than the assult does (Less spread when they shoot unzoomed). I say think, due to I don't play sniperclass, but that is the feeling I get when I meet a sniper?
You say the sniper need 3/4 hits with MGS90. Well, they only need one headshot?With that large scope which they could zoom twice with and a hell of a accurate weapon only headshots should count. A body hit should really count as a miss.

Hope you get the point. I sniper should move and be located where you can't see them?if you do they have failed and should be killed?
A sniper should not spray as an assult, they have a large scope for a reson?but in POE2 snipers have high accuracy and high rate of fire?that makes them more powerfull than it should be in "head on combat" with asssult, medics, spec.ops, etc?Guess that's needed for the "game-play-feeling", but it would be very bad if snipers got to much power?

Krazny, on Oct 26 2006, 03:06 PM, said:

First off,

When in fully automatic fire, there is no assualt rifle in the world that can match the AK-74 family for controlability. (IE lack of recoil and muzzlerise.) This is due to the relativly low recoil impulse of the 5.45x39 round, and the massive muzzle brake that is on the end of the barrel.
This is also the case in semi-automatic fire, but you don't notcie it as much cause you are too busy putting the sights back on the target and pulling the trigger again.

I really do think that weapons have improved since year -74 (AK74 is also "only" an update from 1947). G36 was developed in the middle of the nineties...
"Game play" is most important even if some facts from the real world should reflect on the game?I have read reports from elit soldiers who have fired G36 and affirms that this is the best weapon to fire full auto with (I myself thought the AK was best, due to Russia tactics with as much lead in the air as possible?).
So in POE2 the balance should be?higher damage on AK. G36 should have higher rate of fire or as I prefer less recoil (less spread). Accuracy I would have almost the same just to make it more even in the game...

[Jonathan_Archer_nx01]

Perfect, on Oct 26 2006, 03:50 PM, said:

I was a sniper in the army and I don't think you understand how a sniper should act.
You say snipers don't have armour, but assults have?what you miss to say is that snipers have camouflage. Assults charge the enemy, therefore they need armour. The sniper should do the opposite, that's why they have camoulfage instead of armour.

Snipers are not to underpowered in POE2, I really think they shoot better in close combat than the assult does (Less spread when they shoot unzoomed). I say think, due to I don't play sniperclass, but that is the feeling I get when I meet a sniper?
You say the sniper need 3/4 hits with MGS90. Well, they only need one headshot?With that large scope which they could zoom twice with and a hell of a accurate weapon only headshots should count. A body hit should really count as a miss.

Hope you get the point. I sniper should move and be located where you can't see them?if you do they have failed and should be killed?
A sniper should not spray as an assult, they have a large scope for a reson?but in POE2 snipers have high accuracy and high rate of fire?that makes them more powerfull than it should be in "head on combat" with asssult, medics, spec.ops, etc?Guess that's needed for the "game-play-feeling", but it would be very bad if snipers got to much power?

I wasn't comparing the role, just the damage. I said that the sniper rifles should have higher damage than assault rifles, nothing else.
Well, I didn't say that the sniper rifles are underpowered in PoE2 either. Only MGS90 with its 3/4 shots, SVD with 2/2 is really not underpowered. Also its very easy to say word "headshot" but try to hit moving target at longer range. If you hit somebody he will notice it immediately and he will move to the cover at once. This cant occur when you are using SVD because the second shot is deadly.
2 hits are enough in BF2 from M24 and L96A1 but there is a long delay between shots and they have only 5 ammo in 1 mag unlike chinese Type 88 and SVD for MEC which are "3/3 shots to kill" to both armored and unarmored targets. And I would say that this ratio is balanced.

In PoE2 as you said the Sniper rifles have high rate of fire and SVD is like M24 in semi-auto mod while MGS90 is even worse than chinese and mes rifles in BF2

And this is typed in manual : "One shot to the head or two to the body will bring down any infantryman."
check it http://www.pointofex...i...lay&ceid=17

This post has been edited by Jonathan_Archer_nx01: 26 October 2006 - 09:10 AM

[Krazny]

Perfect, on Oct 26 2006, 07:50 AM, said:

I really do think that weapons have improved since year -74 (AK74 is also "only" an update from 1947). G36 was developed in the middle of the nineties...

Newer doen't necessarily mean better. And the 74 isn't just an upgraded 47. . . .
Anyway, its a trade off. While the 74 is more controllable, the 5.45x39 round has a smaller bullet moving at a lower velocity compared to the G36. Its a trade off.

Quote

"Game play" is most important even if some facts from the real world should reflect on the game?

Yes. Gameplay > realism. But realism needs to be considered, or else you end up with mirrorbalancing.

Quote

I have read reports from elit soldiers who have fired G36 and affirms that this is the best weapon to fire full auto with (I myself thought the AK was best, due to Russia tactics with as much lead in the air as possible?).

I have shot a large number of firearms, including a G36 and an AK-74. As a matter of fact, I own an AKS-74. Having shot both, I can say that the recoil impulse of the G36 is a lot more noticeable then the AK-74's, especially when firing fully automatic. (The lack of felt recoil from the -74 is scary. I've noticed more recoil and muzzle rise from a 10/22 with a Registered Norrell's trigger pack than with an AK-74.)
But this comes at a price. The AK fires a less energetic round, and is heavier than the G36. (Not always a bad thing IMHO)

Quote

So in POE2 the balance should be?higher damage on AK. G36 should have higher rate of fire or as I prefer less recoil (less spread). Accuracy I would have almost the same just to make it more even in the game...

But thats not accurate. The G36 should have more damage, more recoil, and better accuracy on semi. But again, gameplay > realism.

[Jonathan_Archer_nx01]

Krazny, on Oct 26 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

But thats not accurate. The G36 should have more damage, more recoil, and better accuracy on semi. But again, gameplay > realism.

When I first saw this weapon chart http://shormanm.home...rt-All-Mods.xls I had a look at ukrainian rifles first, their damage is 40. Then I looked at G36 and saw those high numbers of recoil, and and max deviation, then I figured that G36 damage will be much higher. I looked at it and then WTF? only 35?

Of course it's not all right. A weapon with such a high recoil and max/add deviation should have damage 50 or above(41-49 still makes no effecy, still 3/4 shots to armored/unarmored target).
But by reason of GAMEPLAY and in the name of REALISM, the ukrainian and the german arms should simple change their damage, that mean
G36 -40
Asvahl>>35
AK-74>> 35
VEPR >>35

OH THAT's IT!! I GOT IT!!! EVERYTHING WOULD BE CORRECT THEN!!!





Oh and btw. In real life (because thats what you are talking about) the G36 has short stroke gas piston, right?

This post has been edited by Jonathan_Archer_nx01: 26 October 2006 - 12:15 PM

[Hr.Jemine]

well, i dont really care about which weapon does more damage/is more accurate/has fewer recoil or something. the main thing is, that the weapons are balanced. and i?m sure they are.

i just want to add a thing i noticed back in my counter-strike days: one thing that also has an impact on how a weapon behaves is your head. in cs you could change the models of the weapons and i know for sure, that i had a better feeling with a better/badder/heavier looking weapon as well as others had. so my point is, that complaining about german weapons is pointless, because for me every weapon of the germans look damn great and nasty. if i look at the as val for example, i just cant use this weapon because it looks stupid (sorry devs ). the same goes for the medic weapon. i think its not the 3dmodel which made this impression. a different viewangle could be pretty helpful.